[Eric Parks]

Eric Parks on November 5, 2022 at 4:27 pm #21658

Update on my Apache starting issue. We have been doing updates on the plane for a year, literally. I guess not so good for the battery. We had replaced a Gill just before taking the plane out of service for the upgrades with a Concorde. However, one of the big reasons we did the upgrades was to improve engine cranking as it was poor to awful. The plane already has Sky-Tec starters on it so that should have been helping already but it wasn’t enough. I guess the wiring was just old and a major drag on the battery. We did try putting a trickle charger on the battery but that didn’t seem to help. Finally, we did a little “accidental welding” when doing the upgrades so that probably didn’t help. At any rate I had to replace the battery after about 15 months. Sigh. I have ordered the BatteryMinder to go specifically with the Concorde battery.

So at this point we have:
Sky-Tech starters
Bogert copper cables and battery box upgrade
brand new Concorde battery
BatteryMinder on the way.

I’m hoping this finally fixes the “starter issues” for 89P! The engines both cranked up just fine today so if that continues I’m happy.

Richard, I’m hoping you got your Apache fixed!

[STEVE]

STEVE on October 17, 2022 at 1:26 pm #21632

Hi Richard,
I can’t find any evidence that your airplane is a positive ground electrical system. A positive ground system connects the “+” terminal of the battery to the airframe. Your negative ground system–it’s the same for all Piper aircraft–connects the “-” terminal to the airframe through a large connecting wire.
The master solenoid connects the battery to the aircraft electrical system. If the system is still in original condition, nothing should get power if the master solenoid is inoperative.
However, it’s been a long time sine 1956, and it’s likely that some one modified the system to provide power to the radios, instruments and gear indicator lights when the master solenoid is in operative.
In my opinion, that’s very unlikely; in fact, I can’t conceive how to do that.
Please check to see that the “+” terminal of the battery is connected to the master solenoid, which should be on the battery box or very close by.

Thanks
Steve

[Richard]

Richard on October 12, 2022 at 6:59 pm #21618

Thanks for the quick reply to my question. I didn’t cross connect the battery leads I accidentally grounded the – lead to the frame as my plane is a 1956 with a positive ground … caused a quick momentary arc.
According to the service manual there are three solenoids … a “Master” solenoid and one at each engine starter sort of like an old ford would have. Since neither starter button turns over the expected motor I would assume that the problem is the “Master” solenoid because both starter buttons would not become inop at the same time.
I hear no “click” when turning on the Master Switch below the throttle console but I have power to the radios and instruments and gear down indicator lights leading me to believe it is the “Master”Solenoid

[Eric Parks]

Eric Parks on October 12, 2022 at 3:08 pm #21617

Richard,

I recently was trying to find the starter solenoids on my ’55 Apache as well. Eventually with Ken’s help we figured out there is only one Master solenoid (relay?) in the system, no starter solenoids. Our master solenoid was located in the nose area behind the battery near the back “wall” of the nose. We are in the process of charging our battery as it has lost power as it sat. We had it on a “trickle charger” but it didn’t seem to hold it. So we have put a better charger on it that can supply more amps. Also, we connected the charger directly to the battery instead of through the external GPU plug. We’ll see if that help or if we need a new battery. Our battery is a Concorde.

Eric

[STEVE]

STEVE on October 12, 2022 at 11:36 am #21614

Hi Richard;
When you write that you caused an arc, do you mean you touched the battery positive terminal against a metal part while installing it? or did you make a mistakenly cross-connect the positive and negative terminals?
According to the electrical schematics in the PA 23 manual, the battery is connected to a single master solenoid. , Are you getting any indication that battery is being connected to the airplane systems when you turn on the master switch?? Are you hearing the solenoid close?

If not, it may be that you burnt the “closing” circuit in the battery master solenoid. If you’re competent with a ohm meter, you can check that circuit by checking for continuity between one of the small lugs (there may be one or two) and the case (in the case of a one lug solenoid) or the other small lug (in the case of a two lug solenoid). If there is no continuity, you will need to replace the master solenoid.
Please get back to me with an answer to my first question; we can take it from there depending on your answer.
Steve

[Richard]

Richard on October 12, 2022 at 10:52 am #21613

Hello … my name is Richard Kirkham… I recently purchased a Piper Apache.
I had to leave it parked for a while and when I went to start it up the battery was dead. So I removed it and put it on slow charge (2-4 amp) and reinstalled into the plane and now still nothing. I did accidentally cause a very brief arc on reinstalling and I wonder if that is the problem. I did a load test on the battery and it tests good.
The service manual talks of a master solenoid that activates the two engine starter solenoids but it doesn’t say where in the plane it is located or if there is a fuse or circuit breaker is involve and where that might live also.
I’m a bit stymied cause it started fine when it was parked.
Any response and fixes you may know of to these questions is greatly appreciated.
Please respond either to the forum or you can text my cell at 775-470-1226.
Text is best because voice cell service in my area is spotty at best
Thanks,
Richard Kirkham