I forgot to mention …don’t know your home location, but John Bartelt in Sturgis, Michigan (where I found/purchased my Toga) is very knowledgeable and helpful. He is a NO pressure broker, would give you info without any sales pitch. Business is Bartelt Aviation. They have a good website.
Saratoga mentor/instructor needed
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ParticipantParticipant
I have owned my 2001 SARATOGA Turbo for 2 years now. Upgraded to a 2 tube Aspen set up, and an Avidyne 540/440, and a JPI engine monitor. I previously flew an SR22 with Avidyne R9. LOVED the ease of use with Avidyne. That is why I had the 540/440 install. This is an updated version of R9, smaller screen. I also like the Aspens. Very reliable, as is the Avidyne set up. No problems. I also, like Scott, appreciate the climb performance. I fly with my wife and two teenage sons, and have loaded the Toga with lots of bads. Still get 500 to 1000 ft climb rates if I need it. Good luck!
GuestHi and thanks for writing. Regarding my six-pack. I still have steam gauge instruments but I have a second AI and DG (HSI) for backup. I’d like to get an Aspen at some point but can’t yet justify the cost. An overhaul of an AI is a few hundred dollars once every 12 – 15 years and an Aspen costs $15k installed. No ROI on that so I’m waiting for a winning lottery ticket. However, the center stack is a different story. I sold off my Garmin 340 audio panel, 530 GPS and Narco transponder and got $13k for the three of them, and that’s after 12 years of ownership. I purchased Avidyne audio, 540 gps and Mode S/es ADS-B out transponder. Since they all fit in the old Garmin trays the install cost was minimal. Additionally, I installed a NavWorx ADS-600B ADS-B in receiver/UAT (also known as the Avidyne MLB-100) and the whole install for everything was under $8k, (including radio, heater, white walls…). Helluva a good deal for another 12 years. If you have old Garmin equipment sell it while the resale is still very high. If you do, make sure you run an advertisement on our FOR SALE forum. If you don’t want to pay $5k to $8k for installation of new Garmin equipment, get Avidyne. BTW, Avidyne is giving away an ADS-B UAT (in and out) free with a new GPS. 🙂 Regarding autopilot: This is easy! In my opinion, don’t get an STEC. They are rate-based and no where as good as attitude-based autopilots. I have a Century 2000 which I purchased used, about two years old. I have a GPSS roll-steering adapter and altitude pre-select, too. I paid about $8k used and it’s awesome. Also, Century is the only autopilot manufacturer that I know of that will sell an STC and install kit for a used autopilot. STEC won’t. This is a great way to get an almost new autopilot for about half price. Keeping in mind that a full-blown autopilot like mine would cost over $25k installed and new, which is like overhauling an engine. My like-new high-tech Century 2000 cost me about $12k installed and I got about $1,500 for my old Century 3 autopilot on Barnstormers.
Good look and let me know if there’s anything I can do to help. Have a good night.
Scott Sherer
N344TBParticipantThanks all for the responses. Scott, one question about your avionics upgrade. Did you upgrade the entire panel from steam to glass or just change a Garmin 430? I imagine you considered upgrading to Aspen or Garmin glass panels before choosing the Avidyne? Can you give me a sense of what prices you were quoted for the equipment and installation of different options and why you chose Avidyne? Also, you mentioned attitude based autopilots. Which models of those come on Pipers?
GuestHello and I hope your Saratoga quest is proceeding according to Hoyle. I have a few answers to your questions below.
Scott Sherer
N344TBKens, thanks for your message. I have tons of questions. Responses to any of them would be much appreciated. Apologizes in advance if these are answered somewhere else.
1)What are the primary differences between the original Saratoga and the Saratoga II?
2)What’s the typical cruise speed at altitudes where you don’t need oxygen? Considering that my family is unwilling to wear oxygen masks, is there any point to me buying a turbo and paying the higher maintenance costs?
[color=#0000bb]>>> Given the choice I’d never have a travel airplane without a turbo. I’ve owned three Senecas, all turbo charged and over 25 years have never had any expense related to turbo charging. The performance is awesome versus non-turbocharging.
[/color] 3)What do you think of the Avidyne displays? I have lots of experience in G1000 and a little with Aspen, but none with Avidyne. I like G1000 much more than Aspen. Is it true Avidynes require significant maintenance?
[color=#0000bb]>>> Last year I converted my Seneca from Garmin (which is terrific) to Avidyne (which is equally terrific). Reliable: totally.
[/color] 4)What are the typical annual costs and maintenance costs? Would you expect significantly higher maintenance costs for an older Saratoga vs. a Saratoga II?
5)Could it make sense to buy an older Saratoga and upgrade to Aspen or Garmin glass panel? Or would you keep the steam guage? It’s been a couple of years since I have flown IFR with steam gauge but I suppose I could relearn.
[color=#0000bb]>>> Unless you have won the lottery or other large cash source, keep the steam gauges. Unless you’re looking at Aspen.
[/color] 6)How do the KFC 150 autopilots compare to the Stec in terms of flying coupled approaches? What about in terms of maintenance and other factors?
[color=#0000bb]>>> KFD150 autopilots are excellent as are STEC. Get an attitude-based autopilot if you can rather than a rate-based autopilot like STEC. STEC is fine, attitude-based is better.
[/color] 7)Is it true that bonanzas are more fun to fly than Saratogas?
>>> Beechcraft are like Buicks and Piper’s are like Chevy’s. Everyone I’ve talked to says that the Bonanza’s are a delight to hand-fly. My Seneca, on the other hand, is heavy on the controls. Nevertheless, the Seneca is a stable cruising platform and I don’t hand fly it much anyway. That’s what George is for on long trips. Happy hunting!ParticipantJoe, I’ll answer what I can…
1. Here’s a link to an article from AOPA on the Saratoga II when it first came out – https://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/1993/August/1/Piper-Saratoga-II-HP
2. Typical cruise speeds vary based on Saratoga vs. Saratoga II, if it is Turbo, how much the plane is loaded, are there speed mods, is it retractable vs fixed gear, etc, etc. etc, so it’s hard to comment. But as far as getting a Turbo, it’s purely a personal choice. If you want the additional airspeed / climb performance (or need to get up over mountains, or fly the higher altitudes) then you probably want the Turbo. Personally, I didn’t want the extra maintenance (issues) that may have arisen with a Turbo.
3. Sorry, I have zero experience with Avidyne.
4. The number of hours to inspect the PA-32-301 during the annual is around 22 hours. So if there are NO additional issues found, expect the annual to cost around (22 hours x A&P rate) $2,200?? or so. The A&P obviously has to run through any AD’s on the plane as well. Regarding older vs. newer Saratoga – that’s a tough one. I would imagine that how well the plane had been previously maintained and stored (hangared, etc.) could have an impact.
5. Upgrade an older six pack question to a glass panel. I imagine this depends on your budget as well as what you would like to have in the cockpit. A personal preference and $$ related.
6. KFC150 vs STEC autopilot. Sorry, not familiar with the STEC autopilot, but I do have a KFC150 and like it. I have had no issues with it and it couples real nice for approaches.
7. Not sure about Bonanza’s vs Saratoga’s for fun, never flew a Bonanza.Hope this helps.
Good luck…
KeymasterHi Joe! Welcome to Piper Flyer Association. I’m sure that Ken and Scott will get back to you, in the meantime, here’s a link to an article we did last year about the Saratoga.
Saratoga School
Blue skies,
JenParticipantKens, thanks for your message. I have tons of questions. Responses to any of them would be much appreciated. Apologizes in advance if these are answered somewhere else.
1)What are the primary differences between the original Saratoga and the Saratoga II?
2)What’s the typical cruise speed at altitudes where you don’t need oxygen? Considering that my family is unwilling to wear oxygen masks, is there any point to me buying a turbo and paying the higher maintenance costs?
3)What do you think of the Avidyne displays? I have lots of experience in G1000 and a little with Aspen, but none with Avidyne. I like G1000 much more than Aspen. Is it true Avidynes require significant maintenance?
4)What are the typical annual costs and maintenance costs? Would you expect significantly higher maintenance costs for an older Saratoga vs. a Saratoga II?
5)Could it make sense to buy an older Saratoga and upgrade to Aspen or Garmin glass panel? Or would you keep the steam guage? It’s been a couple of years since I have flown IFR with steam gauge but I suppose I could relearn.
6)How do the KFC 150 autopilots compare to the Stec in terms of flying coupled approaches? What about in terms of maintenance and other factors?
7)Is it true that bonanzas are more fun to fly than Saratogas?ParticipantThe Saratoga (IMO) is similar to flying an Archer but is larger (heavier) and faster. The other difference to me is that the Saratoga requires for leg power on the ground for taxiing. It’s like a minivan for the sky (holds a lot of cargo) so depending on what you need… I have had mine for 10+ years (probably longer than the average) but really like it even if it’s more room than I need now. It’s a good cross country airplane, very comfortable / roomy in the cockpit. It takes some getting used to if you’re not used to flying high performance to stay ahead of the plane. Unfortunately, I don’t live near New Jersey and am not a CFI. Feel free to post other questions and welcome to the group. Good luck in your search…
GuestHi and good hunting. The airframe on the Saratoga is tough and heavy-duty and is the same one as on my Seneca. If I didn’t have a Seneca I would have the Saratoga. Good luck in your quest.
Scott Sherer
Seneca N344TB
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