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Home » Topics » Main Forum » PIPER MODELS » PA-23 » Flying an Apache

Flying an Apache

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Posted In: PA-23

  • Participant
    Eric Parks on March 20, 2023 at 4:03 pm #21898

    Steve,

    The K factor was the first thing I thought of too but with one being a .6 and another at 2.0 I’m not sure. Also, I THOUGHT we used the transducers that Insight sent so it “shouldn’t be” the issue. My mechanic will be checking with Insight Tech Support to see what they have to offer. I am assuming it will be configuration issues. Also, the low CHT’s on the left gauge look like config issues too. We’ll see…

    Thanks for the encouragement, I’ve gotten to almost giving up on gettting this plane going reliably but hopefully we are over the hump now.

    Eric
     

    Participant
    STEVE on March 20, 2023 at 11:40 am #21897

    Eric,
    That’s great. 
    I am wondering if the “K” factor in the fuel flow portion of your G2 instruments needs tweaking. That’s what I had to do when my FF was off. 
    Now it’s so accurate that when I land at the end of a long XC, it’s within a half gallon of the fuel used. 
    Keep the cards and letters coming.
    Thanks for saving that Apache.
    Steve

    Participant
    Eric Parks on March 18, 2023 at 6:23 pm #21896

    I got the good news that I am back on flying status on Thursday. Unfortunately the weather was kinda lousy for little airplane flying on Friday so I had to wait until Saturday to test fly the Apache after all the work we’ve done. It was great weather today (a little gusty) and the Apache performed as we hoped (finally!). The engines cranked right up and ran great. The props were working properly (little PUN there!). So I was checking out the new Insight G2 engine monitors. We have a couple descrepancies to work on. The CHT’s on the left gauge were all too low, way out of normal range. The fact that all 4 on one side are low tells me it isn’t just a sensor. Also, both Fuel Flows are way low (I wish I only burned that little fuel). So we will get with Insight Tech Support to figure out what needs to be done. Otherwise things went great and I just enjoyed getting out of the pattern in the Apache.

    At 7500′ and 2400 rpm and full throttle I got an “average” of 162 mph/ 140 kts. I say average as I did speed checks on 4 different headings and the winds at that altitude were fairly strong. I was occasionally getting a little bit of wave action off the Appalachains to the west of me so it was varying around a bit. But fun to see 209 mph ground speed at one point!

    Annie was finally ready to stop being a Hangar Queen and become a Flying Machine
     flyin.jpg

    Another attempt at a selfie…
     flyin2.jpg

    Participant
    Eric Parks on March 15, 2023 at 5:02 pm #21892

    Steve,

    That’s pretty much what we figured. We had bypassed one magneto and the whole issue went away for a bit but finally the other magneto started failing again so we bypassed it as well. No issues with the radios so we figured there must be shielding somewhere. So now we know it’s built into the Slick mags we have!

    At this point we are fairly “exhausted” from this whole upgrade so we will save the work on the right engine mags for next annual unless something pops up sooner. Obviously I will be checking how the mags ground more than usual! We plan on removing the old boxes at a later point as well.

    Eric

    Participant
    STEVE on March 15, 2023 at 9:29 am #21891

    Hi Eric;
    I believe that “box” has capacitors inside to absorb ignition noise. If I’m right, then you can remove it, run the P lead wires and shields through the firewall to the IGN switch, and replace those capacitors by installing ignition noise filters. These (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lsMagFilter.php) are used for Bendix mags.
    I’m checking right now but I believe Slick mags have an internal noise filter capacitor.
    Assume they do unless i post here that they don’t.
    Let me know what you do.
    Steve

    Participant
    Eric Parks on March 14, 2023 at 7:20 pm #21887

    We had various things get in the way of finishing but today we were able to work on the Apache again. My mechanic had decided that the attachment for the control for the prop governor was too worn so he installed bushings to tighten it back up.

     propcontrol.JPG

    After that we adjusted the prop lever to match the right one as the left had gotten off in all the “adjusting”. Then it was time to run the engines!

     propcontrol2.JPG

    Besides getting the left prop fixed and adjusted we were able to get some other things done too. We had issues with the P-Lead on the left engine magnetos and finally decided it was some sort of electronic “filter” that had been installed on the firewall. It was nothing my mechanic had ever seen before and wasn’t listed in the parts guide. So once we bypassed it we had everything working ok again. This was a little hard to diagnose as the issue came and went at different times. After that was done we started doing some of the finish up “cosmetic” stuff that isn’t that important except its fun to get it done and it looks great! Here we installed a blank part of the panel just to finish off the look of the far right of the panel. 

     propcontrol3.JPG

    Just to prove I actually am “working” on the plane I took a selfie. Now you see why I don’t do this often. I think I proved my mechanic works and I take lousy selfies!

     propcontrol4.JPG

    A few things have gone well: 
    1. The Granvilles we addeed to the left strut has worked just fine. All 3 gear struts are now holding the proper strut extension. 
    2. All the work on the starter cables and battery has been worth it. The engines are cranking and starting just great now. We are very happy with the Bogert Copper cable and battery box mod. At least now that it’s installed we’re happy!
    3. The BatteryMinder I got for the Concorde battery has worked great so far. Both my mechanic and I have been very happy with this more sophisticated battery charger. He got one for his 182RG that he is rehabbing and his experience has been as good as mine so far. We have only had them a few months but so far it seems to work just as advertised. I would love to hear any other comments on the BatteryMinder but so far it looks to be way worth the cost.
    4. The work we did on the primers has really paid off too. I can now very easily stroke in the amount of primer I need and make sure I have it locked back in place. It turns out my Apache REALLY likes primer and has been starting much easier when cold when I use 5 strokes of primer. I thought that would flood it but not when cold. 

    After this point we are very hopeful that “Annie” will settle down and let us do a few small upgrades from time to time. We are hoping for for some reliable flying now. Unfortuanately I am not able to fly at the moment but hope to be back on flying status soon. I’ll be seeing the doctor later this week so maybe I can get back in the air soon!
     

    Participant
    Eric Parks on February 20, 2023 at 6:29 pm #21847

    We thought we had gotten everything fixed. Then on one test flight we had two rough engines during climb out. The first issue turned out to be an unlocked primer on the right engine. So… Pilot Error! But also while easy to understand I wanted to make sure I prevented this again. The issue was that the primers are between the two front seats on the front of the spar carry-through. So you are looking straight down at them and can’t tell where the locking pin is. My thought is to make it more obvious how the locking pin lines up. As well, we lubricated the primer so it is easier to operate. Part of my problem was how stiff the primer was to pull out and twist. Now that has been fixed as well. I suggest marking the primer so you know where the locking pin is at. I put an “index mark” (black line) at 12 o’clock to mark when the pin is unlocked. That way I can know where to turn the primer to unlock or lock it. In the picture the left primer is unlocked and pulled out while the right primer is locked down.

    primers.jpg

    Besides the primer issue with the right engine we had roughness on the left engine. We went through all of the ignition wiring on both engines and found some issues with the P-Lead on the left engine. So that has been dealt with and we had good test runs on the ground. So we will finish closing up the engines and then take it for another test flight and see if we finally have dealt with everything.

    So far the struts are holding up after we pumped them up and put Granvilles in the left strut (the left one was slowly losing pressure).

    Participant
    Eric Parks on February 17, 2023 at 8:21 pm #21837

    Lots of wheels up and down during gear checks. The gear is hand pumped up and down (about 40 strokes) during the checks. Note that the tires remain exposed when the gear is retracted. While making the plane slower this was considered a “feature” and not a “bug”. The thought was that if the plane had to belly in the tires would still support the plane while on the belly! Of course later versions when it became the Aztec has the gear doors cover the tires for a bit more speed.

     

    We needed to add some “Granvilles” strut sealant to the left main strut as it wasn’t holding pressure over time

     Granvilles.jpg

    The past few weeks got both productive and frustating as we kept thinking we had finally gotten the last issue fixed and more popped up. Once the nose gear issues were fixed we took the Apache around the pattern to test the gear. Good news was that virtually everything worked as it should but the bad news was we suddenly had two rough engines. They were developing good power so fortunately that wasn’t a problem but we both could feel a roughness that shouldn’t be there. So we quickly finished our one trip around the pattern and did some engine run ups on the ground. It quickly became apparent that we had something unusual and it was back to the hangar with Annie! After much checking Eliu thought there was a fuel issue and I thought it was a P-Lead issue. Turns out we were both right!

    Problem number one was very easy to figure out. Pilot Error! I had left the right engine primer UNLOCKED and it was making the engine run a little rough. Lesson learned, I have now marked the primer so I know where the pin is on the barrel to be sure it is properly aligned for locking and unlocking. Also, we lubricated the primer so its easier to use.

    Problem number two was harder. We found that we did have some P-Lead issue(s). My mechanic went all through the ignitions on both engines. At this point we feel confident we have taken care of ALMOST everything. A couple terminal ends were replaced that looked like they were original from 1955. However, we think there is one final issue with a “box” on the firewall that looks like it is designed to isolate ignition noise from the avionics. It seems to be the last offender and we are trying to figure out if this “box” is even needed. Once that is take care of we feel the engine issues are put to rest. When we bypass this “box” the engines run perfectly so we will have to decide if it is to be replaced, fixed or removed.

    Attachments:
    • WheelsUp.jpg
    Participant
    Eric Parks on February 15, 2023 at 5:19 pm #21830

    Steve,

    Done!

    Eric

    Participant
    STEVE on February 15, 2023 at 9:22 am #21827

    Hi Eric,
    Thanks for all the updates on your Apache project. 
    A question has been posted in the forum by a PA 23-250 owner. He asks if there’s a stall horn in his 1960 Apache. I’ve looked through the POH and parts manuals and haven’t been able to come up with an answer.
    If you know the answer, will you weigh in on his post?

    Thanks
    Steve

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